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Talk:Keen sense
Search radius Reference for Keen Sense not reducing the search radius --The Krit 16:47, 23 February 2007 (PST) * Reference for the above reference: revision 25772. (That link was an explanation for why information was removed from the article.) --The Krit (talk) 01:59, October 16, 2013 (UTC) Mixed Blessing? With the details revealed in the detect article, it appears that this feat really only enhances the spot and listen skill checks since the trap detection portion is bugged. Also, does this unique, permanently-ON effect provide a faster check (every 3 sec. instead every 6 sec.) than in non-elf passive mode? In addition, according to the statement (above this topic) attempting to link a reference regarding the detection radius ("Reference for Keen Sense not reducing the search radius"), does Keen sense use the active radius or the passive radius? Besides being a dead link, the statement itself seems wrong to me, as if working as advertised, the Keen sense detection would increase the search radius rather than decreasing it. So, if that feature is bugged as well, it would be important for all players choosing what could actually be a pseudo-handicapped racial attribute to understand the full consequences. As a long-time player of the game, the information comes as a shock to me so am guessing it would surprise others similarly. How adversely the detection action could be depends on these dynamics, because if the PC moves faster, the applicable skill checks will occur less frequently during the linear displacement and be more likely to trigger traps. A few ways to compensate for the disadvantageous movement speed is to use stealth mode or remain encumbered, but that doesn't address the search radius issue. TBH, I've never paid attention to this seemingly-benign feat before, assuming, from its stock, in-game description, that it was a benefit for detection dynamics. Now that it appears to be bugged, I would caution others selecting the race to be wary of the possible pitfalls of its execution in-game. Now, if it is indeed a handicap (except for the stealth detection with faster move speed at full skill), can the feat be ignored during character creation altogether, normal detection mechanics restored (detect mode toggle works) by some sort of custom override... or is it hard-coded? TIA for any illumination on this issue. --Iconclast (talk) 14:22, October 15, 2013 (UTC) * OK, I explained the statement above this topic. It was a bit terse, I suppose, if you are going to go by silly little things like explaining itself. :) As for this feat, my recollection is that it was explained as there being two possible states to be in when it came to detection checks -- active or passive. Being in detect mode (with the reduced movement rate) puts you in an active detection state. Standing still puts you in an active detection state. Being an elf puts you in an active detection state. Hence the statement in the notes of this article: "Detect mode is essentially always on without the movement penalty." --The Krit (talk) 02:05, October 16, 2013 (UTC) :* In that case, I would eliminate the word "essentially" from the note. All that extra adverb does is infer that there may be a difference (i.e. a "distilled" version), however slight, between the standard detect mode and the one acting with the Keen sense feat in effect, a difference that has not been documented. That statement and the missing link were the reasons for my inquiry in the first place. If Keen sense is just detect mode without the movement penalty, it should state that. The fact that it is a race-specific feat makes it obvious it is only available for elves. ::In the detect article, the statement in the first paragraph "It is not possible to run in this mode,..." should include a qualifier like "except for elves" or "except for elves' keen sense", allowing the next paragraph to provide further details about the qualification rather than be in direct conflict with the preceding statement. --Iconclast (talk) 18:43, October 16, 2013 (UTC) ::* Tried a rewrite. As I recall, "essentially" was included because detect mode includes a movement penalty, but this feat does not. So there is a difference, just not to the benefits. --The Krit (talk) 03:19, November 9, 2013 (UTC) *It's not just faster detection. With keen senses, characater hiding in HIPS (or just stealthing, its not related just to HIPS) will not disappear if you have enough spot/listen to detect him. Normally, for character without keen senses and apparently without vanilla true seeing, it doesn't matter how high spot one has, a HIPSing character will always disappear till next round or till spotter turns detect mode on. That grants huge advantage because the get out of sight is enough to strike sneak attack and ignore victim's portion of AC and detect mode is canceled on attack so its not possible to avoid sneak attacks and also attack at the same time without keen senses. This is reason why many pvp servers added keen senses to everyone or why there are so many elves if the server didnt added it. 02:58, October 17, 2013 (UTC) Other races/classes/etc with a similar ability? Apart from elves, are there any other creatures/characters/summons/etc in the game that have the ability to use their full spot/listen/search skill modifiers (without any penalties) while not having to use detect mode or stand still? 19:20, September 3, 2015 (UTC) * Using the article's link, I found dire wolf (summon), baelnorn, Widow Hagatha, and half-dragon cleric. And of course a builder could give this feat to anyone they wanted to. --The Krit (talk) 12:52, September 5, 2015 (UTC)